[R P]

TANSTAAFL. You may not have been directly paying for the spark up, but somebody is. The rec center installed the charger/s, the rec center pays for the electricity, the rec center pays for the maintenance to include the parking spot. Are you a member of the rec center? If so, your membership fees no doubt go to in part supporting this "free" spark up. Or if it's a city, county, or state rec center, your/our extorted tax dollars are paying for the spark.

"How much does it cost to install a commercial EV charging station?

Generally speaking, a Level 2 charger will cost between $1,200 and $6,000, while a Level 3 charger will cost between $30,000 and $80,000."

It is my local community centre and I pay taxes that support it, a lot actually. Our township is very supportive of EVs and does a good job of encouraging EV adoption, and this is part of it. In general Canada, and esp BC and Quebec are very supportive of EV adoption, which is why we have so much free charging everywhere. EVs cost extra as we all know, so the purchase subsidies (got $10K for my Kona and another $9K for my Solterra now) and free charging are very important incentives to get people to buy EVs. When the price comes down to an equivalent ICE car, then all these subsidies will no longer be necessary.

BC has had the highest EV adoption rate in North America for several years now.

British Columbia has the highest rate of EV adoption in North America, more than 54,000 registered in 2020

New numbers show British Columbia has the highest rate of EV adoption in North America, with more than 54,000 ZEVs sold in 2020.

driveteslacanada.ca

And Vancouver, where I live, has the country's top zero emissions vehicle adoption rate at 15.6%, following by Montreal at 10.9%. So it is working...

 

[warmwind76]

EVs cost extra as we all know, so the purchase subsidies...

...free charging are very important incentives to get people to buy EVs.

...all these subsidies will no longer be necessary.

It's working only because of the collective grab of everyone's money. It's akin to levying a tax on the residents of a city, county, and/or state to build a new football stadium for some NFL team for the collective good y'a see, even though it is a relative few who actually benefit.

I am not opposed to EVs at all and who knows, I may be getting one in the future. But EVs have a very long way to go before they are paying their own freight so to speak and their owners. When I go to the gas station and get a load of go-go juice for my Crosstrek, there is that 18.4 cents per gallon Federal tax that goes for road and bridge construction and maintenance (don't know what it is in Canada, but I'm sure there is a Fed tax of some sort). When you are plugging your EV or hybrid in to your "free" charger, paid charger, or at home charger, there is no surcharge, tax, fee, whatever that goes to building and maintaining the very roads that the EVs ride upon. And EVs are heavier than the standard comparable ICE vehicle and cause proportionally more road damage. The Suby Solterra weighs some 4,400 pounds (!!!!!) . That's ~1,200 pounds more than my Crosstrek. And contrast the Ford F-150 Ford Lightning EV truck that weighs ~6,500 pounds.

There have been proposals to get rid of fuel taxes all together and institute a pay-as-you-go fee, meaning that one is levied a fee per mile driven and would be based on the type and weight of the vehicle, and number of axles on vehicle to include trailers. So for example, the Crosstrek would be levied say 5 cents a mile and the Solterra would be levied 8 cents a mile. But of course the problem is tracking the mileage of the vehicle and billing the owners. It would be rather complex involving probably GPS and cams everywhere. The privacy issue alone is what has shot these proposals down in raging flames. But a pay-as-you-go scheme would certainly get EVers to pay their part.

 

[MA Subie]

Oh, you easterners have no idea ...

View attachment 314693

The thing that would bother me most about this drive is that there are no trees.

While not nearly as long, there are considerable stretches of highway in VT with no services, but at least it's a mostly wooded landscape.

 

[R P]

I am not opposed to EVs at all and who knows, I may be getting one in the future. But EVs have a very long way to go before they are paying their own freight so to speak and their owners. When I go to the gas station and get a load of go-go juice for my Crosstrek, there is that 18.4 cents per gallon Federal tax that goes for road and bridge construction and maintenance (don't know what it is in Canada, but I'm sure there is a Fed tax of some sort). When you are plugging your EV or hybrid in to your "free" charger, paid charger, or at home charger, there is no surcharge, tax, fee, whatever that goes to building and maintaining the very roads that the EVs ride upon. And EVs are heavier than the standard comparable ICE vehicle and cause proportionally more road damage. The Suby Solterra weighs some 4,400 pounds (!!!!!) . That's ~1,200 pounds more than my Crosstrek. And contrast the Ford F-150 Ford Lightning EV truck that weighs ~6,500 pounds.

There have been proposals to get rid of fuel taxes all together and institute a pay-as-you-go fee, meaning that one is levied a fee per mile driven and would be based on the type and weight of the vehicle, and number of axles on vehicle to include trailers. So for example, the Crosstrek would be levied say 5 cents a mile and the Solterra would be levied 8 cents a mile. But of course the problem is tracking the mileage of the vehicle and billing the owners. It would be rather complex involving probably GPS and cams everywhere. The privacy issue alone is what has shot these proposals down in raging flames. But a pay-as-you-go scheme would certainly get EVers to pay their part.

In Canada, we have federal and provincial carbon taxes which are added to gasoline and and other fossil fuels costs. BC was the first in Canada to institute these and today has the highest carbon taxes. That's why our gasoline costs here are the highest in North America. The whole purpose of these is to get people off of fossil fuels. There is no specific road tax, although some people might call them that. Some individual municipalities may add some additional transit levies to again try and get people off the roads and support public transportation. These are all part of general revenues of each level of government and they decide how they spend the money. And part of that decision is to support the move to EVs (infrastructure and rebates) as well as subsidize public transportation. That's how government works. If we don't like it, we have a say at election time.

So it doesn't make sense to on the one hand subsidize EVs and related infrastructure and then make those same people pay more for driving an EV. The over riding objective is to get people off of fossil fuels. So it makes more sense to incentivize people to transition to EVs and penalize those that use fossil fuels. Having said that there has been talk of some kind of road usage tax here, but the complexities of administrating and collecting that fairly are incredibly complex. Some people drive a lot (for very good reasons), and some very heavy vehicles are using the roads a lot as part of our normal economic activity.

The US approach to me is very confusing. Some states actually do charge an annual extra fee to EV owners to supposedly support road maintenance. And the subsidies are all over the map, with the various states. The not giving the same tax credits to non-domestic car makers doesn't help either. The federal and some state govts have pledged a lot of money towards a move to EVs and infrastructure. Not sure exactly how, when and where that money will actually be allocated and used. And I don't believe you have carbon taxes, at least not yet, to discourage fossil fuel usage. As a result the transition to EVs and infrastructural is very uneven and hap hazard, from what I see. Your electrical grid infrastructure and capacity in particular needs a lot of work. Solar and wind alone which seems to be the priority now won't be enough. I also believe that incentivizing EVs and deincentivizing fossil fuels instead of just mandating EVs will go further to accomplish the goals of moving everyone over to EVs.

Anyway, while I mention govts, I don't mean to make this political. But that is how is how I see it. I am sure many of you here will totally disagree with me. I understand that given that this is an ICE forum and the misinformation I have seen here about EVs. So take what I said here as my opinion, and feel free to differ.

 

[AstroKats]

In Canada, we have federal and provincial carbon taxes which are added to gasoline and and other fossil fuels costs. BC was the first in Canada to institute these and today has the highest carbon taxes. That's why our gasoline costs here are the highest in North America. The whole purpose of these is to get people off of fossil fuels. There is no specific road tax, although some people might call them that. Some individual municipalities may add some additional transit levies to again try and get people off the roads and support public transportation. These are all part of general revenues of each level of government and they decide how they spend the money. And part of that decision is to support the move to EVs (infrastructure and rebates) as well as subsidize public transportation. That's how government works. If we don't like it, we have a say at election time.

So it doesn't make sense to on the one hand subsidize EVs and related infrastructure and then make those same people pay more for driving an EV. The over riding objective is to get people off of fossil fuels. So it makes more sense to incentivize people to transition to EVs and penalize those that use fossil fuels. Having said that there has been talk of some kind of road usage tax here, but the complexities of administrating and collecting that fairly are incredibly complex. Some people drive a lot (for very good reasons), and some very heavy vehicles are using the roads a lot as part of our normal economic activity.

The US approach to me is very confusing. Some states actually do charge an annual extra fee to EV owners to supposedly support road maintenance. And the subsidies are all over the map, with the various states. The not giving the same tax credits to non-domestic car makers doesn't help either. The federal and some state govts have pledged a lot of money towards a move to EVs and infrastructure. Not sure exactly how, when and where that money will actually be allocated and used. And I don't believe you have carbon taxes, at least not yet, to discourage fossil fuel usage. As a result the transition to EVs and infrastructural is very uneven and hap hazard, from what I see. Your electrical grid infrastructure and capacity in particular needs a lot of work. Solar and wind alone which seems to be the priority now won't be enough. I also believe that incentivizing EVs and deincentivizing fossil fuels instead of just mandating EVs will go further to accomplish the goals of moving everyone over to EVs.

Anyway, while I mention govts, I don't mean to make this political. But that is how is how I see it. I am sure many of you here will totally disagree with me. I understand that given that this is an ICE forum and the misinformation I have seen here about EVs. So take what I said here as my opinion, and feel free to differ.

What do you pay for premium petrol/gasoline? I just filled up and it was $7.99 USD per U.S. gallon.

 

[dpc166]

It's working only because of the collective grab of everyone's money. It's akin to levying a tax on the residents of a city, county, and/or state to build a new football stadium for some NFL team for the collective good y'a see, even though it is a relative few who actually benefit.

I am not opposed to EVs at all and who knows, I may be getting one in the future. But EVs have a very long way to go before they are paying their own freight so to speak and their owners. When I go to the gas station and get a load of go-go juice for my Crosstrek, there is that 18.4 cents per gallon Federal tax that goes for road and bridge construction and maintenance (don't know what it is in Canada, but I'm sure there is a Fed tax of some sort). When you are plugging your EV or hybrid in to your "free" charger, paid charger, or at home charger, there is no surcharge, tax, fee, whatever that goes to building and maintaining the very roads that the EVs ride upon. And EVs are heavier than the standard comparable ICE vehicle and cause proportionally more road damage. The Suby Solterra weighs some 4,400 pounds (!!!!!) . That's ~1,200 pounds more than my Crosstrek. And contrast the Ford F-150 Ford Lightning EV truck that weighs ~6,500 pounds.

There have been proposals to get rid of fuel taxes all together and institute a pay-as-you-go fee, meaning that one is levied a fee per mile driven and would be based on the type and weight of the vehicle, and number of axles on vehicle to include trailers. So for example, the Crosstrek would be levied say 5 cents a mile and the Solterra would be levied 8 cents a mile. But of course the problem is tracking the mileage of the vehicle and billing the owners. It would be rather complex involving probably GPS and cams everywhere. The privacy issue alone is what has shot these proposals down in raging flames. But a pay-as-you-go scheme would certainly get EVers to pay their part.

You could simply track the mileage based on annual vehicle registration.

 

[R P]

What do you pay for premium petrol/gasoline? I just filled up and it was $7.99 USD per U.S. gallon.

I just checked Gasbuddy, and the highest I could find in Santa Monica where I believe you live is $5.29 for premium. So I don't know where or why you paid 7.99. And lots of stations under $5. And it is much cheaper elsewhere in the US. Here the highest for premium today is $1.97 CAD per litre (except for Chevron 94 which is much higher still) and mostly around 1.95.That comes out to $5.51 USD for 91 premium per US gallon.

 

[R P]

You could simply track the mileage based on annual vehicle registration.

What if a good portion of that was driving in the US? My son last year did a 12,000+ kms road trip in the US. And I did about 9,000 kms in the US in 2020, just before covid shut everything down. Maybe US people don't come to Canada much, but I do know a lot of Canadians drive south, esp in the winter.

Maybe after everyone or most people are converted over to EVs, they can find a way to do it fairly. But for now, the last thing you want is to penalize EV drivers. And it is just another tax. Why not just do a better job of using the tax money that you have now?

 

[dpc166]

What if a good portion of that was driving in the US? My son last year did a 12,000+ kms road trip in the US. And I did about 9,000 kms in the US in 2020, just before covid shut everything down. Maybe US people don't come to Canada much, but I do know a lot of Canadians drive south, esp in the winter.

Maybe after everyone or most people are converted over to EVs, they can find a way to do it fairly. But for now, the last thing you want is to penalize EV drivers. And it is just another tax. Why not just do a better job of using the tax money that you have now?

Agreed. It's certainly a complex issue at the moment and no real solutions yet to solve that problem. It's not like you can tax everyone because if they don't even own a car and rely on public transit shouldn't be charged a tax for fixing roads (or maybe they should). I mean, we all get taxed living in our townships, counties, etc. and the roads are part of these areas so whether or not you use those roads doesn't matter because it's all part of your local infrastructure. Sort of like sidewalks, you might not use them, but you're paying some kind of tax so they can build and maintain them, or is there something I'm missing?

 

[R P]

Agreed. It's certainly a complex issue at the moment and no real solutions yet to solve that problem. It's not like you can tax everyone because if they don't even own a car and rely on public transit shouldn't be charged a tax for fixing roads (or maybe they should). I mean, we all get taxed living in our townships, counties, etc. and the roads are part of these areas so whether or not you use those roads doesn't matter because it's all part of your local infrastructure. Sort of like sidewalks, you might not use them, but you're paying some kind of tax so they can build and maintain them, or is there something I'm missing?

Yes, govts provide many services, and each of us can't use all of them. Where I live much of the new road and infrastructure is paid for by the developers which is driven by population increase requirements. Road maintenance is paid mostly by local govts and only major cross country highways get some provincial or federal funding.

We all have school taxes, and they are substantial, on our local municipal tax bills. We don't all have kids in school. In my case, I have to pay those for my primary home, and also for my vacation home, incl other taxes there. And BTW, at the lake, we get no govt services, like roads (we have to maintain those ourselves), fire protection, or have any schools. But because our lake front properties are valued higher than others in the the municipality, we pay a higher share in taxes despite no services. Is that fair? Also our insurance costs there are higher because of fire risk with no fire protection. And we can't even vote there for our municipal counsels and mayor, because we are not permanent residents. There are so few of us anyway, as a percentage of the total muncipal residents, so have no clout either.

 

[warmwind76]

And there is this:

OReGO - Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program

Currently, Oregonians pay a fuel tax to fund road preservation and improvement projects. But cars and trucks are using less gas or run on electricity, shrinking funds for our roads and bridges. With the OReGO pay-per-mile system, Oregonians pay for the miles they drive instead of gallons consumed.

Oregon Department of Transportation : OReGO: Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program : Programs : State of Oregon

Information about Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program - OReGO

www.oregon.gov

 

[R P]

And there is this:

OReGO - Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program

Currently, Oregonians pay a fuel tax to fund road preservation and improvement projects. But cars and trucks are using less gas or run on electricity, shrinking funds for our roads and bridges. With the OReGO pay-per-mile system, Oregonians pay for the miles they drive instead of gallons consumed.

Oregon Department of Transportation : OReGO: Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program : Programs : State of Oregon

Information about Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program - OReGO

www.oregon.gov

So, how does that reduce greenhouse gas emissions (thread topic) or promote EV adoption?

 

[AstroKats]

I just checked Gasbuddy, and the highest I could find in Santa Monica where I believe you live is $5.29 for premium. So I don't know where or why you paid 7.99. And lots of stations under $5. And it is much cheaper elsewhere in the US. Here the highest for premium today is $1.97 CAD per litre (except for Chevron 94 which is much higher still) and mostly around 1.95.That comes out to $5.51 USD for 91 premium per US gallon.

West LA and especially Beverly Hills they get what they can. Sometimes it's not worth driving around in heavy traffic to save a couple of bucks.

 

[MA Subie]

What do you pay for premium petrol/gasoline? I just filled up and it was $7.99 USD per U.S. gallon.

Whoa! I sure am glad I don't live in CA. Right now here in MA it's $3.19 for regular and $4.59 for premium.

 

[blake.berlin]

I've wondered who perseverated over this minutiae. Long live ICE!

 

[MountainJoe]

I'm really glad I don't live in Canada. Or Oregon. Or California. Lots of people moving to FL, TX, and TN now. (No state income tax in any of the above!) Do me a favor and don't move here unless you plan to vote differently than the majority of residents where you are moving from.

 

[AstroKats]

I'm really glad I don't live in Canada. Or Oregon. Or California. Lots of people moving to FL, TX, and TN now. (No state income tax in any of the above!) Do me a favor and don't move here unless you plan to vote differently than the majority of residents where you are moving from.

Political much?

I love the weather in Southern California. Warm all year round and not the oppressive humidity of the southern states (I lived in Florida).

 

[MA Subie]

I happen to be in Quebec right now where gas is $1.45CAN per liter. That equates to about $5.50CAN per gallon. Figure in the exchange rate to US dollars and that come to $4.06 per gallon - more than I pay in MA, but less than gas prices on the US West Coast.

I love the weather in Southern California. Warm all year round and not the oppressive humidity of the southern states (I lived in Florida).

I would miss the different seasons. And I don't consider wet and dry different seasons.

 

[MountainJoe]

Political much?

I love the weather in Southern California. Warm all year round and not the oppressive humidity of the southern states (I lived in Florida).

Yeah. Unfortunately, politics affects the price of fuel and a host of regulations concerning owning and operating an automobile. So I guess living with the humidity is worth it, at least to me.

 

[MA Subie]

I'm really glad I don't live in Canada. Or Oregon. Or California. Lots of people moving to FL, TX, and TN now. (No state income tax in any of the above!) Do me a favor and don't move here unless you plan to vote differently than the majority of residents where you are moving from.

In case you are not aware, there is a no politics rule on this forum.

@Montanan .