Not misleading but, perhaps, not well articulated. Lithium extraction has its issues as does the generation of the electricity to charge the batteries to drive those few miles.
Greenhouse Gas Emissions
Hybrid model year 2019 and newer
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Well, I wouldn't say it's as big an environmental catastrophe, just because the production volumes for coal and petroleum are so much greater, and some of that is pretty horrific (looking at you, Alberta). But the environmental and economic and social costs of lithium are unquestionably pretty high on a per-vehicle basis, and the social issues (at least) don't get sufficient attention from EV advocates. And despite the research, I think the world is going to be in for a shock when the volume of used lithium battery reprocessing begins to explode in a decade or so.
The point I was making there was that a hybrid that's driven 10,000 miles as a commuter will have very different environmental and economic savings curves than a car driven 10,000 miles on longer roadtrips. Everyone's personal situation is going to vary there, so when someone is looking at a personal buying decision they need to take those numbers with an appropriate grain of salt.
Which actually brings up a secondary thought, though it's more applicable to pure EVs than hybrids. EVs are more expensive than ICE vehicles, and will likely remain so for a while, so they tend to be purchased by folks with a higher disposable income. Anecdotally, at least, I get the impression that a lot of those EVs are second cars, because people still want/need ICE vehicles for longer roadtrips. So if someone's primary concern was to reduce their environmental footprint, they might be better off just sticking with a single vehicle than adding the EV and all it's associated manufacturing impacts.
Yeah, but producing a battery is a one time thing to get you lots of miles, however long it will last. Generation of electricity to charge the battery is already accounted for as 'operating use' vs the battery which is a 'capital use'. That's why on the graph, the hybrid starts as a higher polluter than the ICE Crosstrek and over mileage usage, the hybrid then is greener.
If I charge my battery overnight and it takes 6.5 kWh to charge, that's equivalent to 2,413 g CO2 emissions (371g CO2 per kWh). 1 gallon of gasoline burned emits 8,887 g CO2. Assuming I can drive 20mi on electric and your car gets 20mi/gal, my car would have used 120g/mi for those 20mi whereas the ICE Crosstrek at 20mpg would have used 444g/mi for 20mi.
Another thing to think about is if you buy an EV, there would be lower maintenance costs (no need to replace an engine or transmission) and the motors and battery should last you maybe 15-20 years. Would people hold on to those cars for that long or would they be like most of those BMW, Mercedes, Audi owners that just lease for 3 years and get the next newest thing (which is much worse for the environment because it makes manufacturers produce more and more cars)?
I will likely hold onto my Crosstrek for at least 10 total years because that's how long I get Starlink for free. After that I'd have to pay for the subscription so depending on if I want to buy that or go without, it is still probably cheaper to keep the car than buy another car. Battery shouldn't be an issue since I just broke 18,000 miles after 3.5 years.
I don't believe the researchers considered the environmental cost of mining Lithium or generating that electricity.
How is the electricity you use generated?
How exactly do they include in those calculations, the environmental impact of the land laid waste and water poisoned in the third-world countries where the Lithium is obtained?
They might be considering that emissions factor, but I haven't been able to find a paper that goes through all of the detail from soup to nuts. Here's something I found from MIT that is pretty interesting.
How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Department of Mechanical Engineering
MIT's Department of Mechanical Engineering (MechE) offers a world-class education that combines thorough analysis with hands-on discovery. One of the original six courses offered when MIT was founded in 1865, MechE's faculty and students conduct research that pushes boundaries and provides...
I have said before in this forum, that if technology was advanced enough, I would be almost the first in line to purchase an EV powered by a fusion reactor the size of a breadbox- if I could afford it. But the current state of battery technology using Lithium is in my opinion a horrible solution to a bad problem.
Yep, my guess is that the cars they'll be building in a decade or so will definitely have greater overall longevity than what's typical today ... but maybe not the ones that are being built now, since a lot of the engineering is still very much a work in progress, and a lot of the EVs that are being made now are going to seem obsolete pretty quickly.
"The vast majority of lithium-ion batteries—about 77% of the world’s supply—are manufactured in China, where coal is the primary energy source."They might be considering that emissions factor, but I haven't been able to find a paper that goes through all of the detail from soup to nuts. Here's something I found from MIT that is pretty interesting.
.How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Department of Mechanical Engineering
MIT's Department of Mechanical Engineering (MechE) offers a world-class education that combines thorough analysis with hands-on discovery. One of the original six courses offered when MIT was founded in 1865, MechE's faculty and students conduct research that pushes boundaries and provides...meche.mit.edu
Yeah, and the fuel supply to refine oil into gasoline which is simply burned as single use.
Do you not realize that oil production is much worse than mining lithium and has a far reaching negative impact than lithium?
4 Billion tons of crude oil were extracted form the ground alone in 2020. That's 11.19 Billion tons of CO2 emissions. Drilling, refining, and transporting oil are still much worse on the environment, especially since it is a single use material that is burned and everyone in the world breathes air.
You are running into economics of scale there too- 99.8% (WAG) of the world runs on gasoline and diesel, so yeah, the impact is a little larger than for EV's.
Do you have any stats comparing the use of a hybrid to a gas Crosstrek which is what this thread is about?
Scale doesn't matter. But since you're talking about scale:
In the event of an oil supply crisis, all consumers driving gasoline cars or diesel trucks are affected by higher prices. By contrast, a shortage or spike in the price of a mineral affects only the supply of new EVs or solar plants. Consumers driving existing EVs or using solar-powered electricity are not affected. In addition, the combustion of oil means that new supply is essential to the continuous operation of oil-using assets. However, minerals are a component of infrastructure, with the potential to be recovered and recycled.
Did you read post #1 because it's all right there.
Here's a good report that discusses the roles of critical minerals in clean energy
Executive summary – The Role of Critical Minerals in Clean Energy Transitions – Analysis - IEA
The Role of Critical Minerals in Clean Energy Transitions - Analysis and key findings. A report by the International Energy Agency.
www.iea.org
It only gets better once mining companies switch to more efficient fuels for mining and the trickle down effects.
Attachments
Seriously?
Hybrid Crosstrek produces 11.034 metric tons of CO2 emissions
ICE Crosstrek produces 10 metric tons of CO2 emissions
Hybrid Crosstrek produces 240 g CO2 for each mile driven (gas/electric production and tailpipe)
ICE Crosstrek produces 400 g CO2 for each mile driven (gas production and tailpipe)
Hybrid Crosstrek becomes more efficient after 1100 miles (12.618 tons CO2 vs 12.64 tons CO2)
Hybrid Crosstrek at 100,000mi: 251 tons CO2
ICE Crosstrek at 100,000mi: 410 tons CO2
Difference of 159 tons CO2.
Not to mention the savings from having to go get gas more often. If I had a car that got 27mpg, I would have had to get an additional 145 gallons of gas last year and spent an extra $600.
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