[AstroKats]

That's really interesting, thank you! Food for thought.

Since I just bought a gas guzzler, I probably shouldn't be throwing stones. However, I drive so few miles a year that I'm pretty sure I'm under the emissions level of the average pious Prius owner.

 

[AstroKats]

Thanks again. The Prius probably does well in tests. My sis-in-law is on her third.

I drove just over 1,500 miles last year so probably another outlier. I work from home and live where I can walk to shops, restaurants, etc.

 

[AstroKats]

Yep, interesting stuff ... thanks.

The concern I have about numbers like that is that they're going to vary wildly when looking at individual use cases, depending on how often a particular vehicle uses its gas engine. A hybrid that's used mostly for commuting may have only minimal tailpipe emissions over its lifespan, while one that gets a lot of roadtrip use will have a much harder time amortizing the environmental cost of its manufacture. Does Subaru (or anyone else) really have the quantitative statistics to know what percentage of a hybrid's real-world operating life is battery only? I'm skeptical that they do.

And of course the environmental cost of electric production varies wildly, too, depending on where you happen to be driving, so someone looking to evaluate their personal environmental impact would have to figure that into account.

I've not seen anything that really deep dives into the production of the batteries or their lifespan...

 

[AstroKats]

I've not seen anything that really deep dives into the production of the batteries or their lifespan...

And the real environmental cost of their manufacture, to drive 17 miles.

 

[AstroKats]

Lithium extraction is controversial, similar to oil extraction.

 

[AstroKats]

My post was merely pointing out the bias of the article quoted.

You're right, just pointing out that the supposedly "clean" EV industry isn't that clean, as much as their evangelists want to proclaim.

 

[AstroKats]

They are not overlooking the 'problems' of obtaining lithium. These calculations are for operating emissions, not vehicle construction. The emissions associated with lithium for this battery is contained in the battery production value of 1.034 metric tonnes of CO2 emissions.

Exactly! Lithium extraction is becoming as big of an environmental catastrophe as oil extraction or coal mining.

 

[AstroKats]

This is a misleading statement. The lithium doesn't vanish after 17 miles. It's not a single use battery.

Not misleading but, perhaps, not well articulated. Lithium extraction has its issues as does the generation of the electricity to charge the batteries to drive those few miles.

 

[AstroKats]

Yeah, but producing a battery is a one time thing to get you lots of miles, however long it will last. Generation of electricity to charge the battery is already accounted for as 'operating use' vs the battery which is a 'capital use'. That's why on the graph, the hybrid starts as a higher polluter than the ICE Crosstrek and over mileage usage, the hybrid then is greener.

If I charge my battery overnight and it takes 6.5 kWh to charge, that's equivalent to 2,413 g CO2 emissions (371g CO2 per kWh). 1 gallon of gasoline burned emits 8,887 g CO2. Assuming I can drive 20mi on electric and your car gets 20mi/gal, my car would have used 120g/mi for those 20mi whereas the ICE Crosstrek at 20mpg would have used 444g/mi for 20mi.

I don't believe the researchers considered the environmental cost of mining Lithium or generating that electricity.

How is the electricity you use generated?

 

[AstroKats]

They might be considering that emissions factor, but I haven't been able to find a paper that goes through all of the detail from soup to nuts. Here's something I found from MIT that is pretty interesting.

How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Department of Mechanical Engineering

MIT's Department of Mechanical Engineering (MechE) offers a world-class education that combines thorough analysis with hands-on discovery. One of the original six courses offered when MIT was founded in 1865, MechE's faculty and students conduct research that pushes boundaries and provides...

meche.mit.edu

.

"The vast majority of lithium-ion batteries—about 77% of the world’s supply—are manufactured in China, where coal is the primary energy source."

 

[AstroKats]

Do you not realize that oil production is much worse than mining lithium and has a far reaching negative impact than lithium?

4 Billion tons of crude oil were extracted form the ground alone in 2020. That's 11.19 Billion tons of CO2 emissions. Drilling, refining, and transporting oil are still much worse on the environment, especially since it is a single use material that is burned and everyone in the world breathes air.

Do you have any stats comparing the use of a hybrid to a gas Crosstrek which is what this thread is about?

 

[AstroKats]

Haven't answered my question yet. I don't see how hybrids are better.

 

[AstroKats]

None of the studies I've read consider how the electricity is generated. In North America it's almost entirely from fossil fuels.

 

[AstroKats]

It's about EVs and Subaru doesn't have one...

 

[AstroKats]

I forgot about that one.

So did I, can't be that memorable, LOL!

 

[AstroKats]

61% of the US electric production was from fossil fuels in 2021. 19% was from nuclear, and 20% was from renewables. Far cry from almost entirely fossil fuels.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

.

Good to know, it has been a while since I looked at the stats.

I still wonder how the carbon footprint compares when considering the generation of electricity, transmission, and the manufacturing of the vehicle and battery. All of the studies I've read and the awards that Subaru has received only focus on the comparison between ICE only and hybrid model emissions.

 

[AstroKats]

And that depends on where you live. In New England, electric generation is almost 50% from renewable sources.

The Solterra is a start toward EV's for Subaru. In time, they will develop more EV's. As I have said before, the only thing stopping me from going that route is lack of re-charging infrastructure in remote areas.

That would also be a concern, although I'm not looking to buy an EV any time soon. For a trip from here to Napa, for example, I expect it would have to be planned carefully with time for recharging also factored in. I'm used to just looking for the nearest gas station when the orange light comes on.

 

[AstroKats]

Well I'm hoping not to have to buy a car anytime soon. My Crosstrek is only 3 years old and I hope to get at least 10 years out of it, maybe more.

You do bring up another issue. Even when the infrastructure is there, it takes about 20 minutes to recharge a vehicle vs. about 3 minutes to fill a gas tank. Will definitely have to plan trips accordingly.

Orange light?? I look for gas when the tank goes below half!

Yeah, I know. Here in earthquake territory it's recommended to keep at least half a tank of gas in the car. I'm just lazy about that.

 

[AstroKats]

I know this is an ICE forum, but it still amazes me about all the rationalizations for not wanting to buy an EV. And so much misinformation, not worth my time to try to counter it here.

Well, it's an XV forum and there's a PHEV Crosstrek.

I doubt I'll buy an EV and feel my concerns are valid. The infrastructure needs to be there first. It's chicken and egg. As more people adopt EVs it's more likely that, if I were driving one, I'd have to wait in line to charge up. I've waited in line at Costco for their cheap gas but it's only a few mins for each person to fill up.

 

[AstroKats]

So, tell us what you really think, LOL! I see a lot of Teslas around here but I doubt they venture out of the metro area and probably charge at home (which apartment and condo dwellers can't do). And since this thread is about emissions it's worth noting how the electricity is generated.