[Silver Fox24]

Waiting till your engine, oil, and butt are all warm, and then redlining the crap out of them on curvy coastal roads while singing romantic slows to a mesmerized Italian top-model.

Jokes aside, "italian tune-up" does mean pushing the engine to its limits for a while. Allegedly to "burn the crap" out of it.

gotcha

I've never heard this expression, and I'm Italian

 

[Greyfox]

Your Olds 3800 is not Direct Injection. Modern DI engines are a completely different kettle of fish.



Nope. Direct Injection has changed all that.

^^THIS

 

[Greyfox]

As an olderrrrrr driver, I can understand the confusion over some folks that THINK top tier or Chevron additives would help in this matter. When engines had fuel injectors located at port...sure. The cleaners and higher grade fuel would naturally wash/clean those valve areas.

However, in today's DIRECT injection motors, that port injection is gone (although some have both port and direct), and the injector is now placed PAST the valves and DIRECTLY over the the piston combustion area. So no fuel, AT ALL, passes the valves for natural cleaning. Gotta save those precious fuel droplets

Add the smaller liter, higher pressure, higher temperature, and possible turbo...you have a perfect storm to cake on those deposits faster at the cost of saving fuel

There has YET, I repeat YET, to be a an actual side by side comparison of two identical motors:
One doing the preventative catch can and/or occasional cleaner method to keep carbon buildup at bay. And a second motor that does not have any catch can or cleaner maintenance.
Lots of opinions and skewed posts/theories/etc.

The fact of the matter is all DI engines WILL get enough carbon build up at some point. Some DI vehicles have gone on without any walnut blasting or cleaning and are still chugging along after several (ie 100,200,300k) miles without so much as a hiccup. Some vehicle owners swear they needed the cleaning at 30k miles. A lot is going to depend on your oil change schedule, your driving habits, highway driving, city driving, etc

So lets just say the average DI engine would benefit from a good walnut or harsh chemical/scrubbing at 150,000 miles. What is the catch can and regular intake spray cleaning going to prolong that mileage to? 155,000 miles? 200,000 miles??? No one has yet proved or determined this. Again, only theories...no actual proven facts!

I don't know about you, but I plan to hit the intake with some cleaner like Berryman's, CRC, or Subaru's kit posted above, maybe every 30-50k miles (if I feel the vehicle is lacking in performance). No catch can needed. Just let the deposits form. And...if I still have the car at 150,000 miles and the valves seem to obviously need a good cleaning, then I'll invest in a deep cleaning using the walnut or whatever technique is popular at that time. It's just one of those maintenance items needed later of owning a DI vehicle. Just like tires, brakes, timing chains/belts, etc. Regular maintenance is needed especially if you plan to keep the car for awhile.

While it is not popular with the environmentally friendly crowd, there are ways to help avoid the recirculation of warm/oily air by letting the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation valve) air out into the atmosphere like vehicles did just a couple decades ago. I am a big proponent of this as the amount of exhaust/air is negligible, and helps the crankcase breath better, let alone prevent the dirty air from re-entering to get caked onto the valves. There are some hurdles to deal with this in today's vehicles, as certain sensors need to be bypassed or tricked to allow for this mod to work properly. Again, you do you.

 

[sanghill]

That is a great reply. What is the 'deal' with the 'catch can'??? I vaguely remember SCCA sports cars used them. Thought the crankcase fumes went into the intake air cleaner?
I use Amsoil Signature oil because it has minimal oil fume evaporation. That should solve that problem, I hope.
If I can get 8 good years out of this Subaru I will be happy. By then I will probably be too old to go off road. I'll be "arm chair" wheeling by then.

 

[Greyfox]

That is a great reply. What is the 'deal' with the 'catch can'??? I vaguely remember SCCA sports cars used them. Thought the crankcase fumes went into the intake air cleaner?
I use Amsoil Signature oil because it has minimal oil fume evaporation. That should solve that problem, I hope.
If I can get 8 good years out of this Subaru I will be happy. By then I will probably be too old to go off road. I'll be "arm chair" wheeling by then.

That's another "literally" can of worms topic like oil or anything else.

Honestly, IMO, and it's just my opinion, if you drive your CT for 10 years/100,000 miles, you should not have any major engine or CVT issues. But that's assuming regualr driving and no racing or 4 wheeling This is also my first subie and it seems to be on par with most JDM of late. All of today's vehicles, IMO, should make it to 100,000 with very little issue. It's after that, when most vehicles need any major work, including the JDM. So I think you should be good. Again, my first soob as well, but I knew toyota partnered with Subaru, so that made my decision a bit easier as far as longevity/reliability. Honestly, its a crap shoot these days.

 

[sanghill]

Took me 28 years to put 326k on my Oldsmobile. 10 more years on my Subaru works for me.
Thanks for your opinions, I need all the help I can get.

 

[adc]

That is a great reply. What is the 'deal' with the 'catch can'??? I vaguely remember SCCA sports cars used them. Thought the crankcase fumes went into the intake air cleaner?
I use Amsoil Signature oil because it has minimal oil fume evaporation. That should solve that problem, I hope.
If I can get 8 good years out of this Subaru I will be happy. By then I will probably be too old to go off road. I'll be "arm chair" wheeling by then.

That will mean zero. A catch is 100% worthless. Typically a catch can may collect a couple ounzes of "Liquid" every couple thousand miles. How much of this LIQUID will actually on the valves? Answer: none. Also i have seen no engines that have gone high ileage without having the valves cleaned. You are gonna' have to clean them every 8,000 or so to keep them clean IMHO.

I am open to correction but I would want to see proof. Bear in mind its merely a curiosity for me as My Forester has 42K miles on it and I have done 5 cleanings.

 

[Subbienewb]

That will mean zero. A catch is 100% worthless. Typically a catch can may collect a couple ounzes of "Liquid" every couple thousand miles. How much of this LIQUID will actually on the valves? Answer: none. Also i have seen no engines that have gone high ileage without having the valves cleaned. You are gonna' have to clean them every 8,000 or so to keep them clean IMHO.

I am open to correction but I would want to see proof. Bear in mind its merely a curiosity for me as My Forester has 42K miles on it and I have done 5 cleanings.

Not ‘worthless’. They really help on high horsepower modified cars pushing lots of boost. But yea, worthless to us more than likely

 

[kr_xv]

ok ok, so they call it catalytic cleaner but in reality it's an intake/valves cleaner. So you keep the combustion chamber clean and your catalytic converter doesn't receive debris and doesn't get clog

Catalytic-System Cleaner

Protects the catalytic converter from clogging with soot. Cleans intake valves and the combustion chamber. Improves the combustion of the fuel. Clean engines reduce fuel consumption and therefore CO2 emissions. Prevents corrosion in the fuel system.

www.liqui-moly.com

in my opinion it's just another product that "cleans" the intake but with a different name.....

i believe there is different chemical composition for intake cleaner and caralytic cleaner, for catalytic cleaner typically they use agent that is having low volatility so it will survive the combustion process and reach the catalyst.

 

[kr_xv]

Waiting till your engine, oil, and butt are all warm, and then redlining the crap out of them on curvy coastal roads while singing romantic slows to a mesmerized Italian top-model.

Jokes aside, "italian tune-up" does mean pushing the engine to its limits for a while. Allegedly to "burn the crap" out of it.

italian tune up still have merit on cleaning some deposit on exhaust valve and combustion chamber, however direct injection deposit on intake valve will need cleaner run through air intake or walnut blasting. Personally I have experienced light knocking during acceleration on long afternoon traffic jam, that is resolved with crc gdi cleaner. Perhaps after 100k enough carbon stuck on the piston top and rings.

 

[sanghill]

Now that I understand that I don't understand, I have this to say about maintenance:
I bought the Subaru 80k mile "Added Security Service Agreement". I recommend reading it, only 3 pages of fine print.
Especially read: "YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES". I have to maintain my vehicle as required by Subaru.
Specifically I need to follow the "Your Severe Maintenance Schedule: 2024 Subaru Crosstrek Wilderness". Driving off road is considered "severe" by myself and my Subaru Service Department.
It doesn't say I have to do any extra maintenance recommended by the Dealership Service Department. Like cleaning the engine air intake in any way.
It also doesn't say my "Service Agreement" is forefeited if I DO any extra Service recommended by the Subaru Service Department.
I think I need a "New York City Lawyer".

So if there is "more to the story" please enlighten me.

My guess is there is an EGR valve somewhere. It may or may not need to be replaced regularly? It is not mentioned in the Severe Maintenance Schedule.
Do the crankcase fumes get filtered by the engine air cleaner, or do the fumes go into the air intake box after the filter?
This would affect the likelyhood of deposits collecting on the underside of the intake valves.
I know one our Forum Members knows the answer. I may never be able to figure it out.

 

[Greyfox]

Now that I understand that I don't understand, I have this to say about maintenance:
I bought the Subaru 80k mile "Added Security Service Agreement". I recommend reading it, only 3 pages of fine print.
Especially read: "YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES". I have to maintain my vehicle as required by Subaru.
Specifically I need to follow the "Your Severe Maintenance Schedule: 2024 Subaru Crosstrek Wilderness". Driving off road is considered "severe" by myself and my Subaru Service Department.
It doesn't say I have to do any extra maintenance recommended by the Dealership Service Department. Like cleaning the engine air intake in any way.
It also doesn't say my "Service Agreement" is forefeited if I DO any extra Service recommended by the Subaru Service Department.
I think I need a "New York City Lawyer".

So if there is "more to the story" please enlighten me.

My guess is there is an EGR valve somewhere. It may or may not need to be replaced regularly? It is not mentioned in the Severe Maintenance Schedule.
Do the crankcase fumes get filtered by the engine air cleaner, or do the fumes go into the air intake box after the filter?
This would affect the likelyhood of deposits collecting on the underside of the intake valves.
I know one our Forum Members knows the answer. I may never be able to figure it out.

The fumes do not get filtered. Goes more or less straight into the intake. The air filter would get clogged faster if this was piped before it. That's what the catch cans are 'supposed' to do as they help trap moisture/oil reside to keep it from going back into the engine. But IMO, that small amount gets burnt up very easily. As mentioned earlier, the catch cans are more for the turbo'd/higher performing engines, but again, it has its limits in there too.

 

[Greyfox]

Here is a good video about crankcase gasses and what a catch can does. His statement of "as quickly as possible" is spot on, and makes sense when you watch the video. This is the reason I choose NOT to install a catch can, and change my oil more frequently to help eliminate those contaminates from entering. This of course is my take on it. YMMV

 

[sanghill]

So the 'trick' is changing the oil often. I am using the Severe service maintenance schedule in the WARRANTY & MAINTENANCE booklet.
Also have the 80k mile extended Warranty. So I am going to have to change oil every 3k miles and use Subaru Certified oil. I'll let the dealer do it so there won't be any doubt it got done. I actually drive off road a lot, that is the only reason I bought the Wilderness. If the Subaru Service Department wants to do something that is not in the Severe Service schedule it isn't going to happen.

Shucks, just put a Brillo pad over the end of the hose and vent the crankase to the atmosphere. Worked on our 1953 Dodge. Of course I could spend my retirement years in a Federal Penitentiary. So just kidding.

 

[Greyfox]

Shucks, just put a Brillo pad over the end of the hose and vent the crankcase to the atmosphere. Worked on our 1953 Dodge. Of course I could spend my retirement years in a Federal Penitentiary. So just kidding.

Well, depending on who you talk to, this is basically what some people are doing/trying to do. Of course your tree huggers are not happy with it. I personally have looked into doing this mod on my Nissan truck. The trick is not to set off any codes or CEL (check engine lights). Some have had success by purchasing a modified crankcase filter/fuel filter and just plumb it in. Seems to be working...at least on that specific truck. Other vehicles, it may not. Trial and error.

As far as the more frequent oil changes, I'm a big advocate of doing it at the 5k mark. Some will argue that's too frequent?? I disagree, for the exact same reason as indicated in the above video, the oil traps that exhaust and moisture. I don't care what a lab sample states on the viscosity of the oil itself, it's still dirty!! I find that to be my happy medium, and feel it will help prolong from the accumulation of valve deposits. That's my opinion of course. Others will argue something else.

Again, it's your ride. The internal combustion engine has really not changed much. Same principles apply, just with different mouse traps attached. Some of those doodads are not my cup of tea, so I will deal with them appropriately.

@sanghill , I notice you keep trying to justify your purchase or how to maintain it for trouble free miles. I think everyone here wants the same. IMO, keeping it simple is best, and less aggravating for peace of mind
Unless you plan to do some major modifications to the engine, or add some unknown 'snake oil' into the tank, I'd just follow the owners/service manual and keep heading true
Doing more frequent fluid changes, ANY, like oil/diff/tranny/brake/coolant/etc will not be a waste unless you do it TOO often. What's too often? That's a judgment call. I feel safe doing the recommended basic oil/coolant/diff/ and tranny at half of what is recommended. I figure it's cheap insurance, and gives me the opportunity to inspect my ride and its condition a little more frequently. But that's me. Again, nothing really NEW here other than a few different mouse traps to contend with in the process. Sounds like you're familiar with maintaining vehicles, so this is nothing new to you. Just enjoy the ride and quit worrying about "when" something "might" happen. Even a perfectly made vehicle can have a bad day. Such is life

 

[sanghill]

I am a KISS fan.

 

[Kjzoe123]

So the 'trick' is changing the oil often. I am using the Severe service maintenance schedule in the WARRANTY & MAINTENANCE booklet.
Also have the 80k mile extended Warranty. So I am going to have to change oil every 3k miles and use Subaru Certified oil. I'll let the dealer do it so there won't be any doubt it got done. I actually drive off road a lot, that is the only reason I bought the Wilderness. If the Subaru Service Department wants to do something that is not in the Severe Service schedule it isn't going to happen.

Shucks, just put a Brillo pad over the end of the hose and vent the crankase to the atmosphere. Worked on our 1953 Dodge. Of course I could spend my retirement years in a Federal Penitentiary. So just kidding.

Reminds me of my youthful shenanigans. Would crawl underneath my 1969 Dodge Polara and would poke holes in my muffler with a screwdriver just to make it sound louder😆

 

[Mbushaw]

Reminds me of my youthful shenanigans. Would crawl underneath my 1969 Dodge Polara and would poke holes in my muffler with a screwdriver just to make it sound louder😆

Growing up in the Dakotas and Minnesota, I didn’t have to poke holes in the muffler. The State did it for me with all the salt on the road!

 

[adc]

My '18 Forester XT has 43K miles and I have done 5 cleanings with the CRC intake cleaner. Did it 2K miles ago. Next week I am getting the intake valves cleaned by the dealer. So hopefully this cleaning will bring the valves almost carbon free. $168. The mechanic admitted that when the car gets uo close to 100K miles and the check engine lights come on it may take 3 cleanings to correct the issue.

I was planning on doing the walnut cleleaning but I will go at least to 60K miles. Doing the CRC cleaning every year. So that's once a year.

I will see how much trouble it is to get the boroscope down there.

 

[ND Trekkie]

I am a KISS fan.

"I wanna rock and roll all night, and party every day!"