Model Year 2018 and Newer Why go manual? - Page 4

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Thread: Why go manual?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by xvsix View Post
    I've been a manual purist my whole life, but decided to go CVT on the Crosstrek, mainly because I wanted the extra fuel efficiency, but also because I found X-mode in my wife's Forrester to be very handy when navigating steep snow-covered hills. I've had the car for about 3 months now, and don't miss manual at all. The CVT doesn't give the same experience of intimacy with the car, but having the CVT definitely makes it easier to deal with traffic. It's an even tradeoff.

    However, I have been very disappointed with the mileage with the CVT, which is nowhere near what Subaru claims even with very conservative driving. Both highway and city driving #s are about 3 mpg lower than claimed. It makes me think my fundamental reason for getting the CVT was based on fake numbers.

    Based on this, for me personally, the choice of manual vs. CVT is a toss-up, except that you have to pay an extra $1k for the CVT. I neither have nor want EyeSight, so this was not a factor in my own decision.
    I think the manual is totally worth it, and would like to get one myself. They are fun and engaging. IMHO: The CVT is fine, but the manual is better. No Eyesight is fine, but with it is better. I've had a lot of manuals, and I've driven them all in Chicago traffic. Traffic means I shift more. I like to shift. I will have MT again.

    There is a lot of variability in MPG based on terrain, driver and a lot of other factors. For me, it's not a good idea to buy a car or a specific option like a trans to gain a specific MPG rating. I don't think my actual experience has ever matched up with the published numbers, and I've owned a lot of cars. Maybe I'm soft, but 3 mpg off on roughly 30 mpg estimate is pretty close. I've seen 8 off of a 20 estimate. More than once.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardpryor View Post
    I’m about to order a 2019 Crosstrek Premium. I’m not interested in any extras as I want to keep the price as low as possible. Perhaps the bumper cover and all-weather mats.

    My question is, why would someone get the manual transmission over the cvt? I own a manual truck and it’s fun to drive. Keeps you busy. But with the Crosstrek, you’re sacrificing a lot of efficiency.

    Do the guys that are getting manual transmission do off-road? Is it a no brainer to get the cvt if you’ll use this car mainly to commute?
    We bought our 2016 manual transmission to tow behind our motor home. Otherwise we would have purchased one with a cut.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robob View Post
    On top of being in the auto parts industry and always hearing of people with premature failures and harder to find filters/fluid, I decided to go with the MT. I have driven many MT and other MT Subaru so this wasn't a worry of mine but they are a known quantity and parts/people are available to fix and maintain them. CVT is still new and if it's anything other than a sensor or a belt going wrong with a CVT most of the time the whole unit will be replaced.

    That being said the MT is always a 50/50 mechanical torque split where as the CVT is able to distribute the torque to any 4 corners as it sees fit using torque vectoring and the ABS system to put power down where it's needed.

    It comes down to personal preference, planned length of ownership, and who is going to be doing the work/maintaining of the vehicle.
    I very much agree with you, especially the servicing and "known quantities" of tried-and-true existing systems.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the MT 50/50 mechanical torque split is for the centre diff (front/rear), and the viscous coupling allows it to go up to about 70/30 according to the shear forces on the fluid (maybe even as high as 90/10). The "default" state is 50/50, but it will change as wheels fore/aft wheels slip. Meanwhile, with the CVT, the "default" state has a more forward bias (60/40). The CVT system then applies forces to the centre diff clutch pack electronically during conditions like throttle lift off, even if wheels aren't slipping, or under other conditions as the computer map decides to prevent under/oversteer. This is accomplished through the wheel sensors and a whole bunch of other variables (e.g. overall speed, lateral Gs, steering input) -- there isn't necessarily an application of braking force on a wheel's rotor (like for ABS, or stability control) but it's actually through the diff sending power. That said, it's also clearly enhanced through braking force at one corner only, or multiple ones (e.g both inside wheels) in a bend.

    I know for sure this is how it works for the centre diff, I'm just not sure about the front diff and if there are differences between the MT and CVT for that (the rear diff, meanwhile, is relatively simple as a mechanical limited-slip that can lock 50:50 for both transmissions). Subaru references their “helical-type” front differential that uses "a planetary gear set to vary the torque delivered to the left and right axle shafts, depending on traction and engine load" but I'm not sure if the MT uses that -- it may be an older tech.

    It's hard to get a straight answer from the Subaru marketing literature because it oversimplifies things, but the CVT is definitely more sophisticated and "instant-on" in terms of the centre diff than the more traditional viscous coupling one in the 6MT.

    The best explanations I've found (albeit dated) are:

    https://www.subaruforester.org/vbull...30-post11.html
    This later link also really explains VDC.

    Personally I've had experience with both MT and CVT systems in low traction snowy conditions. I have a 6MT 19' Crosstrek (up one trim level, but no eyesight) and, while it was getting serviced under warranty, used a '19 Impreza CVT as loaner with all the bells and whistles for a few days. I definitely prefer the former. As long as you *turn off the VDC* it was way more fun in the snow and lets you stay in the powerband more easily. You definitely feel more connected with the car with the MT. Meanwhile, the eyesight system and lane departure systems turned off in the loaner under poor weather conditions (slush on the highway splashing on windscreen; snow in lanes) and made me seriously distrust them. I also feel the more sensors there are, the more things there are to go wrong, but that's my bias. I also don't like how they encourage people to be less aware of their surroundings and become overly reliant on systems (even blind spot detectors). That said, I really like performance driving and am not just a commuter.

    The most fun (and the warranty issue) was when the ABS/VDC *failed* because of a wiring loom issue. There were no nannies on then whatsoever. The car was at its best. It even affected the steering feel at lower speeds (I suspect because the power steering pump didn't change output, but maybe it was something else). There was a noticeable difference between that -- no systems on whatsoever -- and when it was working but with VDC deliberately disabled to allow for more power slides in snow (prevents brake grabbing as wheels slip, allows more yaw and prevents engine cut-out). There's still *some* safety stuff on even with VDC disabled, but clearly the parameters are different then when the whole system is shut down and the dash looks like a Christmas tree.

    Finally, I bought the MT not only for my own driving experience, but also because I plan for my daughters to learn to drive in this car. I don't want them to ever say "I don't know how to drive that" as they share a car in Europe or elsewhere!
    Cheers,
    phaetn
    Last edited by phaetn; 04-19-2019 at 05:50 PM.
    2019 Subaru Crosstrek - DGM - 6MT - pics
    1974 Fiat Spider - heavily modified - pics

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  6. #34
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    I get why other people hate manuals in traffic, but really, what else are you doing that you can't do a leg workout?? The lack of 'gusto' that the Subi has compared to larger engine cars is why I prefer manual. It makes you feel like you can get more out of it by manipulating the RPMs. Don't rely on gas mileage for your decision, from all threads I've read, no one gets the advertised mileage for manual or CVT. Off the lot, I drove 400 miles on interstate in Arizona/Cali (flat flat flat) and didn't get advertised mpg. You'll prob hate the stereo so at least with a Premium, you don't have to fret about swapping out for a new HU.

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  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardpryor View Post
    HU? @gretauberguber ?
    Head unit.

  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaetn View Post
    I very much agree with you, especially the servicing and "known quantities" of tried-and-true existing systems.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but ...

    ...Meanwhile, the eyesight system and lane departure systems turned off in the loaner under poor weather conditions (slush on the highway splashing on windscreen; snow in lanes) and made me seriously distrust them. I also feel the more sensors there are, the more things there are to go wrong, but that's my bias. I also don't like how they encourage people to be less aware of their surroundings and become overly reliant on systems (even blind spot detectors). That said, I really like performance driving and am not just a commuter. This is where you are wrong, right, wrong. 1. Systems turn off because they can't see, that's normal and should be understood before driving. The driver should turn them off, but the car is smart enough to turn them off for you. 2. More sensors, more fail points. 3. "reliant on systems" idea is WRONG. They are a second opinion. This is not a self driving car. It is proper to drive like they are not there. The sensors can save you, or quietly hang out while you control away. This has been discussed before, performance or commuting with eyesight is possible

    ... There were no nannies on then whatsoever. The car was at its best. Agreed, sometimes, it's fun to turn it all off. I do, too. It's fun to have a vingtage car, or racecar with none of it there.It even affected the steering feel at lower speeds (I suspect because the power steering pump didn't change output, but maybe it was something else). There was a noticeable difference between that -- no systems on whatsoever -- and when it was working but with VDC deliberately disabled to allow for more power slides in snow (prevents brake grabbing as wheels slip, allows more yaw and prevents engine cut-out). There's still *some* safety stuff on even with VDC disabled, but clearly the parameters are different then when the whole system is shut down and the dash looks like a Christmas tree.

    ...
    Studly

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaetn View Post
    Cheers,
    phaetn
    I totally disagree with you. You love your MT and you can have it and enjoy it. I love my CVT and will keep it and enjoy it. There is NO right or WRONG. It is strictly a matter of personal preference. I love the EyeSight, you hate it ... I'll keep enjoying it as it has saved my wife's new 2017 from an inevitable and unavoidable collision. I love it as it does better on gas mileage than I do when in bumper to bumper traffic, and it is an assistant keeping me safe from running into someone's back end. It does not stop the car behind me from running into me, but hey, I'll take what I can get. I feel safer with EyeSight covering my back (so to say). You'd rather give your legs a workout, at my age my legs can't handle that. I'm not calling you wrong, but don't try to prove to me that I'm wrong either because in my book, I'm not.
    2018 Crosstrek 2.0i Premium, Sunshine Orange w/ Eyesight, Moonroof, Homelink Mirror, Change Assist, Blindspot Detection, Whippet in cargo area

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gretauberguber View Post
    I get why other people hate manuals in traffic, but really, what else are you doing that you can't do a leg workout?? The lack of 'gusto' that the Subi has compared to larger engine cars is why I prefer manual. It makes you feel like you can get more out of it by manipulating the RPMs. Don't rely on gas mileage for your decision, from all threads I've read, no one gets the advertised mileage for manual or CVT. Off the lot, I drove 400 miles on interstate in Arizona/Cali (flat flat flat) and didn't get advertised mpg. You'll prob hate the stereo so at least with a Premium, you don't have to fret about swapping out for a new HU.
    I could care less about a leg workout, but after spending a few months with my CVT I have to admit enjoying the freedom of using my hands to do other things than twiddle the stick which stuck in traffic (and yes, hands plural, I admit to sometime driving with my knees). I say this as an avowed MT fan who took on the CVT with trepidation.

    As for mileage, I remain disappointed with the Crosstrek. Every one of my previous cars has lived up to its mileage claims, and in the case of my last car (an Audi) exceeded the claims when driving conservatively. I can't say the same for the XV, which again is consistently about 3 mpg below the claimed numbers for both highway and city driving. I am not a happy camper on this point.

  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xvsix View Post
    I could care less about a leg workout, but after spending a few months with my CVT I have to admit enjoying the freedom of using my hands to do other things than twiddle the stick which stuck in traffic (and yes, hands plural, I admit to sometime driving with my knees). I say this as an avowed MT fan who took on the CVT with trepidation.

    As for mileage, I remain disappointed with the Crosstrek. Every one of my previous cars has lived up to its mileage claims, and in the case of my last car (an Audi) exceeded the claims when driving conservatively. I can't say the same for the XV, which again is consistently about 3 mpg below the claimed numbers for both highway and city driving. I am not a happy camper on this point.
    Interesting that one of last cars was an Audi with a 6MT that neVAr gat near the estimate with conservative driving. That 2.7 twin turbo was tough to not run through paces though. I enjoyed it a ton and drove it 175,000 miles before selling it.

    I also don't drive for a leg workout, and enjoy the CVT just fine. I like shifting, too. It's nice to have a choice.

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